Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?

[Spidubic]

Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?

I copied the text here for those who do not have Facebook. Interesting read.

Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?

An opinion piece, by Karen Nancarrow, Ontario Certified Teacher

I’ve just read one too many teacher bashing posts on Facebook today.

As a teacher, I will of course, provide a slanted opinion, but here you are. Disagree with me if you’d like, but not until you read this entire article, start to finish.

I love my job. Period. I would do it for less money, fewer sick days, and less time off. I would do it if I had to be tested yearly by the government to show that I know my stuff, and even if extra-curriculars were forced on me. I would still do it. I love it.

I went into teaching because I love kids. Yes, there are many people who think we go into this profession for the money, but please consider this. A starting teacher’s salary in our school board is $39 000. And this is after an average of 5-7 years to get a contract. In order to move up on the pay grid, teachers must have years of experience (so our salary goes up a little every year up to a maximum of 10 years) and we must also take extra courses in order to be paid the maximum amount. So in order to reach the top of the pay scale, a teacher must have had a contract for 10 years and have taken several extra university credits (paid out of their own pockets AFTER two university degrees).

So given that it might take 10-15 years to make it to the top of the pay scale (which is still a modest amount), many people’s assertion that teachers are in this for the money really have no justification for their position. When you ask teachers to look at “how good we have it”, please realize that when we go into teaching, the reasons are NEVER about the money! If I wanted to get rich, I definitely would not have chosen teaching as a career.

Pensions: Yes, we have a good one. Because we PAY into it!! Every maternity leave that I’ve taken (3 in total), I have paid back my pension and paid $8000 plus each time to keep it updated. Pulled it out of an RRSP.

So putting the money argument aside for a moment, this fight with the government actually has NOTHING to do with money. The bottom line for most teachers is that we have the RIGHT to negotiate with our employer. In fact, when this whole thing first got started, most teachers I know said “pay freeze for two years – yup, times are tough – we get it”. But it was only after more details evolved that we realized that the government wants to take away WAY more than two years of a pay increase.

Some say that we should be negotiating with our employers.

POINT OF CLARIFICATION here – the government is NOT our employer!! The school boards are. Imagine a third party coming in, going over your employer, who you have a good working relationship with, and telling you and them what you will be paid, how many sick days you will get, what days you will take off without pay, and that EVERYTHING you have negotiated with your employer in the last 20 years has now just been taken away in a heartbeat. No discussion. You have no say and your employer has NO say. Not even 5 minutes of discussion were we given – thanks so much!

Wouldn’t you fight to at least have the discussion with your employer? Even if you ended up with the same thing the government wanted to impose, would you not fight to have the ability to try?

Here are the two biggest concerns that I have:

Yes people not in unions dislike unions. But unions are the backbone of a lot of our working class people – whether they are in one or not. If unions fall, we should ALL be very afraid! What the government seems to be attempting to do is to get rid of unions. This is not about an argument with teachers. This is about the government exerting unjustified power to wave their magic wand and do whatever the heck they want and this is NOT OK!! Whether you are in a union or not, whether you support unions or not, remember that they are the ones who have fought for statutory holidays, minimum wage, overtime and good working conditions. Whatever is negotiated, ALL workers benefit! Get rid of the unions – you’ll also be getting rid of the middle class. Less people have less money to spend = more people out of jobs. Period.

2. This fight is about protecting our democratic right to free collective bargaining with our employers. If Bill 115 is allowed to stand (which I doubt, because one very similar to it was just reversed in BC because it was considered unconstitutional and unlawful by the courts), then this allows governments free reign and places themselves ABOVE the Human Rights Act and ABOVE the Employment Standards Act!! We should ALL be very scared of this! They are putting themselves ABOVE the law.

That’s it. Top two concerns for sure. Not about money, sick days, pension or benefits.

The government could have easily said to the school boards (OUR EMPLOYERS) that they had a certain amount of money and then teachers would have (just like we do every 2-4 years) negotiated our contracts with our employers. But they didn’t.

Because of their excessive spending over the last 8 years, the Liberals panicked when it came time for the bi-election a few months ago. In order to get the Conservative vote, they acted hard-nosed to get a majority. How’d that work for you McGuinty?

I get it. You’re upset. When teacher’s contracts are splayed out in the papers for everyone to see every few years, people get pissed off at our “privilege” and our sick days, and our summers off. We all have that one teacher who was mean to us (or 2 or 3) and it’s time we give all teachers heck because of the very few bad apples.

AND on top of that, what we have always gets compared to what everyone else has.

Teachers work hard. No one is saying that you don’t.

Teachers deserve every penny they get. No one is saying that you don’t.

Teachers need sick days because we are around sick kids who wipe their boogers on us every day. And get lice, Fifths disease and pink eye. The flu, barf on our shoes, and sneezing in our face. Oh yes. Fun times.

Teachers get the summers off. Yup. And we don’t get paid either. We get paid for TEN months.

Teachers negotiated banking sick days. This actually ended up being better for the government than paying us vacation pay, so we actually gave in and took the banked sick days over having vacation pay every year. Banking sick days means that we have a bit of a short term disability plan if we get really sick. It means that at the end if we haven’t used all of our days, we get a small retirement gratuity, which is then taxed and half taken away. This actually SAVES the government money in the long run – cheaper than the supply teachers they would have had to pay had we taken all of those days. (Let’s not mention that Dalton is getting paid right now for doing NOTHING (excuse me, I mean organizing the Liberal Leadership convention), and when he retires in a month will get a retirement gratuity of $315,000), but who notices that?

We get that we are well taken care of. But we help you RAISE your children. And for some, we provide a safe place, food for breakfast, a hug a day, love and support when they get that NO WHERE ELSE.

And we do a ton of extra-curriculars. The public loves us when we do them and they get outraged when we don't. They are ALL VOLUNTEER!! And we love doing them, but NO ONE has the right – not our employer, not the government, and not the public – to pressure us or to chastise us when we choose not to VOLUNTEER!

I had a student tell me yesterday that I have changed his life. Not because I do an after school activity with him, but because I listen to him, care for him, spend time with him and value him.

Yes, we’ve all had a crappy teacher or two. But please everyone… don’t make it about that. Teachers deserve your respect. You love us all year until it’s time to negotiate with our employers which we have every right to do.

Parents – you’re pissed off? Good. Because now you’re paying attention! So how will you expend that frustration? Posting more Facebook posts about how horrible and greedy teachers are? I hope not.

Do better than that. Stand with us.

We are fighting for your children. For our own children.

We are fighting for public education.

We are fighting for democracy.

And if we get taken down, I’d watch your back, because you might be next….

[kishgo]

Super!

[growler]

and it may end up that the law get's changed to allow anyone that wants can chose to not join a union when working but not be discriminated against by boards(employers)or unions representing others ! what will the union management say when there is no pay left for them to use ?
they just passed a law to that effect in michigan,a state with a lot of unions !

[Ruby Tuesday]

I've never been supportive of unions. A lot of union positions have higher pay than non-union, but when the employer can no longer afford to keep their operations running due to the enormously high costs of labour ... Well?

Stelco? Caterpillar? John Deer? Automotive bail out? Public sector can be worse, only difference is that a lot of time It's partially the taxpayer's money that's paying their wages and that cases real animosity.

I just don't have support anymore for the teachers. Same as I don't for farmers. Mostly because there always seems to be an ISSUE and they they become portrayed as whiners.

Do teachers work hard? Some - not all.
Do they out in long hours? Some, but I would bet less than 1% put in as many as I do, or put in as many as the average management professional in the private sector.
Do they buy supplies? Maybe some do. Private sector employees do too.
Do they have more holidays than most? Yes
Does private sector get that many sick days? Not usually.
Do they get ample vac time? Don't know anyone else that gets that much time.

OH, but they can't bargain. WHAT on earth are they scared of? What do they really think will happen? They agree to the contract and then the government is going to change all the use, working hours, pay?? What is there to be so scared of??? I totally don't support them anymore.

[Ruby Tuesday]

Oh this topic just fuels me up!

I seriously think that there should be a whole restructuring of the merit system for teachers, those that perform to standard are paid as such. Those that perform above are paid as such - no different than where I work. You perform well and you are rewarded period.
If you don't meet expectations you don't get handed pay increases just because it is time. Imagine how broke companies could go doing that!
I can't bargain for stuff. My work place isn't a flea market. Ha! I understand that ppl have rights but you would think that they are all getting locked in a cage because they won't have any rights? The world will end.

Totally, totally tired of it. Let's all get our hand out. Let's price the educational system right into privatization, because it sure seems as though that's how hard they are pushing.

I could go on FOREVER.

Wake up, a lot of stuff on that posting is part of their job. They need o quit itemizing everything they do make it should like ever god darned thing is one thing extra that they do.

Ughhhhh

[growler]

you put my feelings into written form !

i can only see 2 main things written into bill 115 that are taken away from this group,and they are :wages frozen until 2014. and :sick day banking to be cashed out upon retirement.
there are a few mentions of pay levels not being changed during this period, and other minor subjects, but nothing saying they cannot negotiate other matters that they need to work out with the local boards,but they (the unions,or groups,associations, or other names being used)keep saying they are not able to negotiate contracts ! the act goe's on to say they should negotiate and ratify terms prior to years end or accept an imposed contract !
they say that bill 115 is against the law ! so it is in the court system,but has yet to be judged, so until it is ruled against it is still law ! but they choose to ignore the law! but the bill will then be used to force them back to work if they go on strike ! so now (not officially!) they are telling the kids they can walk out in opposition to the law, but they (the teachers) cannot ! so it is as people (myself included) are saying,they are using the kids to bully the taxpayers, but are supposed to be teaching these kids not to bully !

IS THAT THE WAY ROLE MODELS ARE SUPPOSED TO TEACH ?

Grrr...rrr.........rrr....!

[Ruby Tuesday]

I'm just o tired of the public sector having their hands out. They have the most job security (which isn't in the public's best interest either) and the best overall compensation PACKAGES. Not one thing that they say they have had taken away or that they do doesn't happen in tons of other jobs. Don't they get it? Get off the podium and get back to work.

[observer]

The Reformer op ed page had a piece about the amount we spend on pensions for "civil servants". Boggles the mind! Wed. paper - by Lorne Gunter.

$44 billion in pay and perks for for 375000 civil servants: $114,000 each, on average. Notes too that federal workers take 17 "non-vacation" days per year, vs fewer than 9 for private sector workers. Working for the government must be stressful, I guess

[growler]

yeah i get so tired handing mmoney,change,back to the customer's at the counter in the lcbo,and them damned taxpayers never leave me a tip ! no wonder i need more time off work !

[Ruby Tuesday]

What are non vacation days? Not sick days or vacation but other time?

[observer]

I think they're called "personal"days

[kishgo]

And usually unpaid.

[Ruby Tuesday]

So that would be added on top of their sick days of which they are entitled. Adds up to a whole lot of time taken off work. My guess is the if you took that much time in most private sector positions you would be dismissed.

Private sector E-leave act says you must allow 10 days per year for employees, with no reprisal. Feds would get that plus more. Taking 17 days a year is almost 1.5 days per month. I haven't taken a day in over 2 years.

What we have to put into perspective too is that they also typically have generous vacation plans, and most probably have 4 weeks vacation, which is a month a yr right there that they don't work. The public system has got totally out of control and is costing the gov't and the taxpayers a ton of money. It has to stop!

[kishgo]

And not to start an arguement or debate but I have many friends in the private sector that take days off to care for unhealthy children or parents, days paid, as well as having six to eight weeks holidays every year and a company car with gas provided. Needless to say, they do work at home in the evenings and on weekends, as do most people. Their salaries are usually close to or over the $100 000 mark and bonuses. Many are in their forties.
Willing to bet there are many many people, including teachers, who dont' take the 1.5 days per month as well. I know when I retired, I 'lost' over 300 sick days over the years. Didn't need them, didn't use them. I was lucky to be so healthy.

[growler]

KISH,YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOUR SELF,BY NOT TAKING/USING "SICK DAYS" WHAT KIND OF AN EXAMPLE WERE YOU SETTING FOR THE YOUTH OF TODAY?

[kishgo]

[gale force]

Obviously Kishgo was the kind of employee who did not take advantage of the system, and was smart enough to appreciate the position she had. I also retired with a great many days of unused sick leave - even after having to use almost three months while receiving medical treatment. There are always those who work the system, and those who don't.

[kishgo]

You are spot on GF. There are always those who take advantage of everyone and anyone and those who don't. Strong and loyal work ethics are not as prevelant today, imo, as in the past. But as soon as I say that, I can think of one person right away who was lured to another company with tremendous financial gains, but instead he chose to stay with his current employer. Within the year he was made the youngest ever director in the history of the banking company and now a VP at 38 years of age. So nothing is black and white.
We all make choices in life.

[kishgo]

And as well, there are many employees who are just like us GF. We are not the exception imo.

[Ruby Tuesday]

Sometimes things come together well. Being in the right place at the right time is also important. Yes, there really are still tons of truly honest hard working individuals out there. I do, however, notice that the younger generation's work ethic is changing - more focus on time off, less labour intensive, etc.

[Ruby Tuesday]

And not to start an arguement or debate but I have many friends in the private sector that take days off to care for unhealthy children or parents, days paid, as well as having six to eight weeks holidays every year and a company car with gas provided. Needless to say, they do work at home in the evenings and on weekends, as do most people. Their salaries are usually close to or over the $100 000 mark and bonuses. Many are in their forties.
Willing to bet there are many many people, including teachers, who dont' take the 1.5 days per month as well. I know when I retired, I 'lost' over 300 sick days over the years. Didn't need them, didn't use them. I was lucky to be so healthy.

You are very right - I don't know many with 6 to 8 weeks holidays, but close and the other merit perks are right on too.

It is a blessing to be healthy enough to not have to use sick days, yes. Others aren't always so fortunate. Everywhere you turn in life there are abusers of rules, policies, etc, and they want more provisions. I have about 120 ppl reporting to me at work. Most are awesome with attendance, but there are those that like to miss time. What's the most interesting is that 50% of the folks that miss time do so on Mondays and/or Fridays.

When it comes to all these paid sick days in the public sector I would like to see how many are Mondays and Fridays, and I bet the occurrences are astounding. I think that they should have o bring proof (dr's note) to support the absence.

[kishgo]

"What's the most interesting is that 50% of the folks that miss time do so on Mondays and/or Fridays."

I always found that curious too. At one time, our board said that if we were 'sick' on a Friday, we had to take a Monday off too, to "prove" we were ill. THAT had a lot of teachers up in arms!!! Stupid rule.

Bad apples in the system did have to have a doctor's note, if so asked by the principal. The words stressed related came out a lot.
Although I agree that many teachers made a decent living, one must keep in mind that all salaries are not equal throught the province, even for the same responsiblilites and positions. The GEDSB was in the bottom ten for lowest paid in the province. And I don't mean by a couple of hundred dollars. I hope the desparity is less now by it was by about $20 000 ten years ago.
So although I do not like the way children/parents are held as pawns in this sitution (and never have liked that!) it appears the only way to get the Big Guys to pay attention.
Interesting article in Toronto Star this morning about extra curricular actitives and how this whole scenario could have been avoided had some suggestions been followed in a report made a few years ago.

[growler]

well i know they have left the various BoE in place for that reason.
the thinking is teachers in cities like hamilton,niagara,toronto,kingston,thuder bay etc. have higher costs of living than those in brant/norfolk,etc. so why sshould they get the same pay (that is why we pay the opp in norfolk more than they should be getting?)
but as they are to teach the kids not to bully,are they now right to use the kidzs to bully us ?

[kishgo]

Good point Growler. These situations are never black and white. The gray areas cause the grief, don't they.
The various boards throughout the province can be poles apart in benefits, salary, extra curricular and even testing.
I'd be really curious to know exactly the starting salary of a teacher (who probably had to wait three years for a full time position). And the top level too. I wonder if GEDSB or others divulge that info?

[retired2]

GrandErie on strike this Tuesday. Look at all the money the govt. is saving in wages

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