Re: Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?

[retired2]

On another note, they are suppose to give 72 hours notice. Posting it on the board website count??? They did that yesterday. Lots of parents may not have a computer/internet. I though a note would have to come home with the children. Guess not. The granddaughters are happy and we are happy, we get to spend the day togehter.

[kishgo]

[growler]

[Slowfood]

I have spent my entire working career in the real world, getting raises and advancements based on merit,skill and hard work. Right now I am an independent business man. Believe me I have no safety net.
My wife works in the unrealish realm of working at a publicly funded organization. She is not a teacher but has 8 weeks paid holidays and lots of perks.She has it pretty good, but still a far cry from the teachers(she is not unionized).
This leads to some interesting discussions at our house let me say

[kishgo]

"Real world"? Are some of us in an unreal world...imaginary? fictitious? My businessman hubby useD the same words to me and, as in your house, led to many interesting discussion. I've learned over time that it isn't a discussion worth having anymore.

[Slowfood]

We have agreed to disagree on this as well.
It does lead to lively discourse at a club I belong to where it is about a 50-50 split between public sector workers and business people though.
The term "Real World" is practically in universal use by everyone I have ever met in the real world.

[kishgo]

Slowfood. I wonder which world has the bigger population???? LOL

[retired2]

Funnie how the people making $80,000 a year care less that people making $20,000 have to find the cash for the extra daycare, if they can one or have to take the day off

[growler]

Funnie how the people making $80,000 a year care less that people making $20,000 have to find the cash for the extra daycare, if they can one or have to take the day off

Dooh sum peepell work and maicc ohnly $20,000. per year ?
don't they noh thaiy kin get payd by the gov't to return to skool,beacum hi-skool gradyouets,go to coledge und unionadversity,then beacum teeshers, so thay cann mayk the BIG $'s and halv sick dais ?
i noh if eyed ben tohld ida made morr $'s than when i was dooin it !

[kishgo]

Deleted

[retired2]

I see by cd98 that the teachers were told to keep thier mouth shut, only union reps are allowed to talk to the media. I think I would tell him/her something

[growler]

they wouldn't listen to you as they might catch a disease,COMMON SENSE!

[kishgo]

A good article to read:

So. In the coming days, a LOT of people in the 905 and 416 are going to be inconvenienced. You will have to make alternate arrangements for your elementary c
hild, while teachers walk off the job.

In fairness (as the attached image suggests), it is the most polite strike in the history of time. Our signs will be grammatically correct, and in many cases visually pleasing and creative (we are elementary teachers after all - we work with poster board as part of our job description, and we have the paper cuts to prove it). Further, it is polite and considerate strike action in that it is only one day, and we are giving 72 hours notice before it happens. Where I grew up, the school board has something like an average 6 days of school closure a year due to weather. Mother Nature never gave my parents 72 hours notice before she dumped a whack load of snow that closed the schools for 1 or even 2 days at a time.

Many of you will have strong negative feelings towards teachers while they are 'off the job'. Those are your feelings and you are more than entitled to them. Many of you will have opinions about it, too. Before you vocalize them, though, please think of this...we'd rather be at school. During the week before Christmas, the last thing we want to be doing is parading around one education site or another, losing a day's pay, spending hours outside in December. But we have to take advantage of our right, because 2 weeks from now, that right, along with many others, will be stripped of us.

And also, please, before you drive by a picket line and vocalize those negative opinions, I would respectfully ask that you research your opinion by Reading bill 115. Pay particular attention to sections 14 and 15, where words like "no term or condition shall be questioned or reviewed in any court", or "the Ontario Labour Relations Board shall not inquire or make any decision on whether this...is constitutionally valid or is in conflict with the Human Rights Code". As I always tell my students, if you are going to have an opinion, back up your opinion by KNOWING what you are arguing ABOUT. And ask yourself...when a government puts itself above the Ontario Labour Relations Board, every court, and the Human Rights Code, is that not at least a little scary?

Yes, we as teachers are doing this for ourselves. But we are doing it for our children, too. And yours. Because one day, some of our children might want to work in a helping profession, and may want to work in the public sector. And it would be so NICE if they could have the same rights that, until now, we have enjoyed. The rights that people before us fought long and hard for. One day, this moment in education is going to be in the history books (well, websites...), and the public sector workers need to be the ones who won. Because if they aren't...well. Ontario is turning into the kind of place that many of us won't want to live in.

If, once you know the facts, you feel inclined to SUPPORT teachers, here's a suggestion. If the arrangements that you make for your children on strike day involve you having to take time off to spend the day with your kids, and if you feel so inclined, then please, drive past a picket line somewhere in your neighbourhood with your child. Show them what it looks like when a group of people stand up for their rights and the rights of others. Show them that their educators are not being bystanders. Give a honk and a wave (the 5 fingered, supportive kind of wave). It will mean a lot and it will be so very, very appreciated.

I will shout it from the rooftops until I change at least ONE mind...Bill 115 is a terrifying piece of legislation that needs to be repealed. IT'S. NOT. ABOUT. THE. MONEY.

[Ruby Tuesday]

We have agreed to disagree on this as well.
It does lead to lively discourse at a club I belong to where it is about a 50-50 split between public sector workers and business people though.
The term "Real World" is practically in universal use by everyone I have ever met in the real world.

I work in the real world too. Have done the same -earned every merit increase by demonstrating that I can exceed expectations - not just by being someplace for xx amount of years and one falls on my lap - not that some don't deserve it as well, of course. When I look at my place of employment I see many people with 20 to over 30 years senority. We do not earn the same pay - not even close in some cases - because some have moved along over the years and some have been happy with the status quo. Completely depended on what the person wanted and what they put into it. I don't think anyone should move up in a pay scale simply because their years are in. Be honest - if you had you own business doing what you loved in life and you had tons of employees would you want to hand everyone the same increase just because it was time? I wouldn't. The private sector would go broke if they had to do that. You want ppl that aspire to be part of growing your business! Some larger unionized firms have closed up shop and moved to cheaper labour countries strictly because of high union fought wages. The difference here is that the pockets have a never ending bottom because it is the public sector. That is wrong in so many ways!

I have 5 weeks vacation and typically about a week and a half off at Christmas. The difference with me though is that my phone is on 24/5 (and 24/7 on the odd week). I totally love my job and have worked so hard for every promotion and increase - many hours over the years on and above our office norm. Volunteer for occasions at work - but because of my position it is expected I be there - same in some cases as teachers, and I've also completed my education along the way - lots of out of located money.

So, from my side of the fence I just don't see how I can support the teacher outcry.

[kishgo]

Real world VS Not real world or Non union VS Union?

[growler]

real world * teachers and unions(representatives have an expired contract#
real world*employers open to negotiation #
real world *teachers and reps donot/will not negotiate #
real world* employers warns teachers and rep's must have contract before new school year begins or face law imposed contract #
real world*teachers and rep's ignore warning,as the gov't don't have a majority in legislature #
real world * bill enacting law is passed #
real world * teachers and rep's cry foul and take legislature to court for ruling#
unreal world * teachers claim they have public support and the gov't is wrong and even though they normally support this governing party,but that bill was supported by the other parties, and that they can go on strike,even though the court has yet to hear the case #
fantasy land*teachers and rep's claim it is not their job to send comments home to parents,to attend teacher parents nights/meetings,to coach students in activities anywhere but during scheduled classes(even though teachers have done this for the past 100 or more years,BUT it isn't SPELLED out in their EXPIRED contracts)#
real world* minister of education says(as do's the law,bill115) that any negotaitions not covered by the bill, must be negotiated before jan/01/2013,or the standing agreement (which has expired) will be used for 2 years#
real world* teachers say they will not negotiate outstanding issues in contract but will instead strike #
real world* the minister rather than stoke the fires say's if the teachers strike one day only they will not use the clause in the bill to force them back to work #
dream land* the teachers say by doing this the gov't is admitting the bill(law) is not legal #
dream land* the teachers think they have public support in striking #
and a few more dream land statements by the teachers rep's * even though the economy is bad, and the province debts are way over the top they deserve to be allowed to increase thei wages,because they didn't cause the debts ! they don't have to take part in any thing at/for school kids,as it isn't in the contract ! and as they didn't cause the economy to tank, they shouldn't be singled out to fix it ! people in industry don't take pay cuts so why should they ? the province has lost work during the downturn but they need more,as they have more education than most !
THIS CRAP IS CRAP !
no one say's the teachers caused the debts of the province,or said only they have to take a wage freeze !
the non classroom work has always been done by teachers, and they have it written into their contract that non teachers cannot even work as volunteers with the students after classroom time unless they are present ! and it isn't specified as part of their job in the contracts as it has been understood by all that this is part of their jobs !
and the public is now seeing that these teachers and teir rep's are not only being well paid but are not being tested on a regular basis to find out if they actully deserve raises,and other perks so may be digging a deep hole for them selves as the upcoming contracts may require testing to maintain their jobs, and longer work days without any extra pay,and lose the option of maintaining the jobs as supply teaching after retiring(which denies younger teachers the chance to work)
and they do have a good education,but as even the doctors have taken a TWO year wage FREEZE and they are well educated as well!
and as some in industry have not got pay cuts they also no longer have jobs to go to.
and everyone knows the economy isn't in the gutter because of teachers but is in the tank world wide no one is blaming them just asking for help from them !

so in the real world the teachers look like they prefer disney land !

[kishgo]

It's far more than a wage freeze Growler.

[Ruby Tuesday]

My position is traditionally a non unionized position. Typically when unions are in a manufacturing facility it doesn't cover management - I believe they are typically exempt. So, for myself, non-union.

Real world to me is working for personal succession and not getting pay increases handed to you because "it is time". I think that there should be accountability for the wages and there should be some incentives to PERFORM in order for merit achievements to be granted. It's different if you are running a production line and everyone is doing the same thing, but such is not the case here in a teacher's position. There are overachievers and underachievers. Then we get into the whole equal pay for equal work issue and all heck would break loose. Teachers don't demonstrate that they have public accountability (in my opinion). Unfortunately when you are in the public eye, and getting a pay cheque somewhat through taxpayers - well, the public wants accountability or those earnings - and that's AlL the costs of paying you - your salary and your social costs - so this would also include sick days - think of that cost?! Not only are they paid to stay home, but also we pay a replacement to come and teach their class, so that adds up to an overwhelming day I am sure.

I think the day of unions are starting to run thin. They are in manufacturing. Today I see GM is pulling the Camero from Oshawa to MI state. We have seen jobs being pulled south all around us to both the US and Mexico - labour costs are cheaper, and I'm sure the other fixed types of costs and business taxes are all less. We are becoming overpriced producers. Unions have been very instrumental in causing that problem in regards to wages. Historically I understand unions Did a lot of great things, such as mandated improvements to worker safety, working conditions and hours, etc .... But, we do have more laws to cover workers than we've ever had and they shouldn't need unions to protect them any more.

I, however, do not think that most teachers are overpaid at all. I do think that a lot of other perks they get are costing us too much money to continue to support. I also think they hold require performance evaluations that are linked with Merit increases.

[kishgo]

It breaks my heart to think that GM is taking the Camero to USA after all the billions of dollars pumped into the car plant to keep it afloat. I thought the original agreement said nothing would change (ie. keeping GM in Ontario) before 2014. Another broken promise.
I could be wrong on this, but, the sick days payment upon retiring has been grandfathered. Now when teachers are hired this is not a perk and non existent. Granted, there is still a lot of money involved.
I have to agree with you on some of your points RT. Unions are wearing thin and yet if teachers disagree and don't follow the 'line', they can be fined. There are many out there that disagree with stuff the unions say and do but hands are tied.
And not to direct this at anyone, but just my opinion.
When folks say that some do not live in the 'real' world, I feel this is quite insulting, disrespectful, and rude. It makes the speaker sound superior to others and again in my opinion, is just plain wrong.

[growler]

well in the case of the camaro going back to the usa,i'm not happy about it but the workers in california wern't to happy when it came to pq from there.
and the billions that were loaned to gm are all repaid(except some shares they wouldn't sell as they are making us some profits) and the deal about keeping jobs here was to last until the 2015 moel year end.
the recent deal was/is with the caw that the new contract would keep a # of workers until the end of the current contract.
and the caw has called it a bad deal !
and they have every right to protest it!
just like when cat in london asked for a pay cut, and they walked out of negotiations and wouldn't return,as cut's were out of the question !
and just a year or so before that they wanted to tell mercedes how to run the truck plant in st.thomas,and told them that in the next round of negotiations them german managers had better get used to the way canadian's do business !
and they(the union) had the right's to do this, and they got their way ! freightliner/mercedes/sterling couldn't/wouldn't play ball so packed up and went home and don't build that kind of truck here anymore ! and in london as cat couldn't get the union to do do it there way the union forced them to move out !
so the union won that case too ! !
and it looks good on them people that own the shares in them company's as people won't buy them trucks or r/r engines around here any more(not counting they don't have jobs to pay for them).
and so now the unions are mad at gm,as they should be!
the workers in oshawa say they work better and build better cars than they do at the cadillac plant in lansing, so gm is just being greedy by building cars there, just so they can save money !
and they have the right to kill gm in canada if they want !
after all them toyota trucks can be bought here instead of them chevies they used to build here and they are better trucks!(the toyota's that are built in non union plants in the usa) (but a toyota worker i know who can buy them cheaper than others just bought a new chevy,that was several thousand $ cheaper,and the consumer reports say the chev pickups have better quality now than they used to have?when they were built in oshawa)
so i hope the caw keeps up the good work and closes up some more of the factory's owned by them gready yankees !

Now lets Support the Teachers Unions in breaking the rest of the taxpaying public, as they still have some money, even though they have no jobs, they still collect unemployment and welfare !
and they never caused the deficit so why should they help pay it off ?

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